ResEdChat Ep 39: Using the Doctorate To Amplify the Voices of Students and Staff

Crystal Lay:
Welcome back to Room Pack’s ResEd Chat podcast where we highlight cool people who do cool things and talk about cool stuff in residence life and college student housing. I’m your guest host, Crystal Lay, and I use the she/her series pronouns. Today we’re going to be talking to three fantastic humans, Alvin, Eric, and Kawanna about doctoral degrees. Now when I think about conversations related to PhDs and EDDs and JDs, the question is usually whether to get one and of course which one you should get. But on this chat, we’re going to go in a different angle. These folks have made their decision and are going to talk about how they’re using their doctorates or hope to use them to impact the lives of students who live on campus. I’ll start off by having our guests introduce themselves.

Alvin N. Mangosing:
Morning everyone. My name is Alvin Mangosing. My pronouns are he/him/his, I had the pleasure of serving as assistant director for Res Life here at San Francisco State University, and I had just wrapped up my first year of a educational doctoral program through the College of Education. So welcome.

Erik Sorensen:
Hi, Dr. Erik Sorensen. I’m an assistant director of Residence Life at Miami University in Ohio. I’ve been doing that for about 10 years and in addition to that with receiving my doctorate, I’ve also had the opportunity to teach in the student affairs and higher education program here as well.

Kawanna Leggett:
Good afternoon, my name is Dr. Kawanna Leggett and I’m the senior vice President for Loyola Marymount University, and I wrapped up my doctorate during COVID in August, 2021, and I am using it to really shape what the student experience is through the lens of staff. My dissertation was on thriving in student affairs professionals.

Crystal Lay:
Wonderful, thank all of you for being here. I know you’re very busy and so the time that you’re taking means so much to me and our listeners. Let’s start with our first question. Why did you pursue a doctorate and then also how did you select your particular program?

Alvin N. Mangosing:
I can start off considering I just gotten accepted and started the program. Been working in higher ed for the last 15 or 20 years, I think pursuing a doctorate made sense for me in terms of I’ve got all this year of experience and now an ability to add some scholarly centering work to that. I think as I was looking at professional development opportunities, I was like, “Why not develop myself in terms of how I see myself as a researcher, a scholar, that sort of thing?” And so it became time for me to pursue that degree. I’ve had this itch for a while, so figured I’d just do it and it was going to be paid for by the institution. So definitely take that up.

Erik Sorensen:
Yeah, my story is not entirely dissimilar in that it’s something I always wanted to do. I really like academic work. I was always a good student, whatever that means. And so just the idea that that was a good next step for me. But part of it too is I was thinking I might want to teach, I might want to do faculty as an opportunity. I thought it might help open other doors for directors, dean of students, VPs. So it felt like a good career move, but very similarly, I chose the place that I was already working, but I was at an on-campus interview and when I was moving into assistant director role, I wasn’t sure that I would necessarily do the PhD right away, but I knew I wanted to do it eventually.
And I was actually at a couple different schools doing on-campuses and realized these are great schools with great programs, I’d be foolish not to do it. And then I ended up here at Miami, which has an absolutely fantastic program, and I was able to apply. I actually applied the first year I was here because they do every two years admit, and it was on an application year and I said, “Oh, let me jump in and do this,” and started it and loved it and glad I did it.

Kawanna Leggett:
I actually am complete opposite. I tried to avoid this thing for as long as I possibly could. Mentor, supervisors, my mom all were like, “When are you going to do it? When are you going to do it?” And I was like, “I don’t know.” And then I got a job opportunity in St. Louis. I was moving from California to St. Louis and I said, “This is the time to do it.” I didn’t know what I was going to do in St. Louis, and so I said, “I’m going to experience getting this degree while I’m there.” And I was able to find an institution, University of Missouri, St. Louis that was close to campus and the program was manageable for the way I wanted to do a doctoral program.
It was a lot of group work and it worked for me. At the time I was executive director for housing, so it was busy, busy, busy, busy. And so I needed something that was going to be flexible, and so it was really location and also this desire to accomplish this thing that people had been waving over my head for so long, but it was not something I was like, “Oh, I can’t wait to do this.” So that was why I chose.

Crystal Lay:
And so all of your paths seem… There’s some similarities and some differences, but I’m hearing proximity was helpful whether it was onsite or within close distance. I also heard flexibility and I also heard that most of the institutions paid for it. So I think those are some really cool pieces for folks to hold onto as they think about if they want to go on that journey. Let’s transition into talking about skills. What are some skills that you feel you’ve learned or are learning in your coursework and how do you use that in your current role?

Erik Sorensen:
Yeah, I felt like I was getting a ton out of it even at the time, and I never seriously thought about quitting, but just for all our listeners out there, you do think about quitting. I think we all think about quitting sometimes, but even though I was like, “I’m going to finish this,” I thought to myself, “Even if I stop now, I’ve done my coursework. Even if I don’t complete a dissertation, I’ve learned so much.” And so I felt like what I was able to do, I was learning student development, and particularly here at Miami, there’s a big focus on learning partnerships model, and so I was literally able to take that. I was part-time student, so I was working full-time at the time and I was able to take what I was learning in the classroom developmentally and apply that to my students in the classroom in learning conversations with my staff.
I incorporated this a lot in my supervision, so I felt like I could literally take what I was learning, and that was true of all my courses. I took a crisis management course, I took a critical race theory course and immediately I could apply that. So don’t discount what you’ll learn in class. The dissertation is the big piece, but the coursework was excellent, and there’s just a few skills I learned, but I was able to apply immediately.

Crystal Lay:
Awesome.

Kawanna Leggett:
I struggled with the coursework at first because it just was not relatable to what I was doing on a day-to-day basis. I think the biggest takeaways I had was just the conversations with my classmates at the time when we were in in-person classes and to hear what they were experiencing at their campuses and how we were taking what we were learning in the classroom, but then have these bigger conversations about student affairs and the work that we were doing and how we were applying it to each other. So while the coursework was like it was okay, it was not what really elevated the experience, the conversations with the professors and the classmates that really shaped the experience.
And then we get into COVID and we go online and just the community that truly formed during that time, it shaped the classroom experience. It’s one thing to talk about statistics in the research we’re doing and then the realities of we don’t even have people to research because everybody’s not even together anymore and what does that look like? And so I felt like the classes were fine, it was more about the community and the classroom experience that really made it feel like a special place.

Alvin N. Mangosing:
This was a fun question to think about in terms of what skills, because I think of the hard skills in terms of time management, prioritization, creating those boundaries. I think for me, I think that other layer of skill building have been going through this process is just a little bit of context. I’m a first generation doctoral degree seeking student, and so there’s that piece of the imposter syndrome, learning how to support myself and reassure myself I am in and part of this journey.
I’m doing my research on transgender students of color within the context of Catholic Jesuit institutions. And so I’m looking at belonging. And so diving deep into that work has helped hone in on my skills of thinking critically and figure out where I can apply some of the scholarly work and the work that I’m doing, not only just with students, but as I think about my staff members from marginalized identities and where belonging comes into play. So I think in addition to the time management, boundary setting, that piece, it’s a lot of skill building of who I am, thinking about who I am as a scholar and how do I continue to reaffirm myself in that way.

Erik Sorensen:
Yeah, I strongly agree and identify with that too. And something I didn’t mention before, but I think is really important. I don’t know if I could have gotten this without being in a PhD program. Certainly there must be ways, but learning how to do research and learning how to really engage in scholarship and be a scholar, it’s different. It’s different. I think maybe we might talk a little bit more about that a little later, but just the idea that I actually oversee assessment in our office and I’ve been able to use research skills and assessment skills directly with what I’ve learned. I understand how to do research better and I’ve been able to review for articles and some other doors have opened as a result, which is pretty cool. And that was very specifically from the PhD experience and really the dissertation experience.

Crystal Lay:
It sounds like each of you were able to take the coursework or the experience within the classroom and make it your own. You were able to find threads of how does this apply to my day-to-day work? Because I don’t think they just tell you, “Here’s the coursework, here’s how you use it.” That’s a part of the scholarly journey. So I’m appreciative of what you all have shared. Alvin, you started to go down this route. Can you all talk about the impact you’re hoping to have on students who live on campus explicitly? How does it connect to your area of research?

Kawanna Leggett:
Well for me, at the time, we see the retention of our staff continuing to be in trouble to be quite honest. The work in housing and residence life is super tough and it is not for the weak at heart. It is a lifetime of commitment from living the lived experience and from the hours. And so we have to look at ourselves to say, “Are there things that we need to be innovating and to really look at staff wellbeing?” And so when I thought about all the great staff that I had lost and they were going to different functional areas or completely out of higher education, I thought about the impact that that had on students who lost people that they connected with and that they felt community with as staff transitioned out. And so my research began to look at why do people stay at their jobs? What forms and shapes that experience of belonging for staff?
And then I started looking at the models of Laurie Shriner thriving for students, and what if we talked about what it meant to thrive as a staff member, as a student affairs professional and would that help retain our staff to really secure that students had this sense of community of people that were staying within universities? And so I began to look at thriving of student affairs staff and the impact of why staff thrive and why staff don’t. And it became interesting research because we were doing it in the middle of COVID and the survey that we sent to a university was based on in-person experience versus hybrid experience.
And we found that staff thrived in hybrid models, staff thrived from remote work. And so that was eye opening and I would love to do the research again now that people are back in person and what impact that has had on thriving. So really it was this model of how do we help retain our staff, particularly in housing residence life when we know the work is tough and really thinking about what does it mean to thrive as a student affairs professional more specifically as a housing professional.

Crystal Lay:
I love that. I remember in my undergrad experience, there were those mentors, those advisors who really were a part of my success. Alvin, you talked about imposter syndrome earlier. I’m also first gen. And there were those folks who would say, “You can do this. You’ve got this.” And then if they left, it’s like, “Okay, as a student, how do I find another person who can pour into me and support me?” And so how do we keep our staff longer? I think that’s definitely important research. Other folks.

Alvin N. Mangosing:
Yeah, I think I was going to… When I started this journey, I was really trying to hone in on, again, belonging within the context of housing for transgender students of color. And I’ve expanded that. What I’m hoping to do is figure out where belonging is across campus because I don’t want folks to think that transgender students can only feel like they belong when we provide them transgender housing. And I think that’s what some of the research is saying is that they’re good with the housing. What they’re feeling now is that when they step out of the residence halls, there are those challenges there. And so I really try to really pivot my research to look at comprehensively around. And I think the other piece that I’m hoping to do in my research I think is the belonging is we always take this deficit model of where do they not belong.
I’m hoping that in my research and in my dissertation is really providing and amplifying a voice of transgender series of color are here and they’re thriving and this is where it is. And I want them to see themselves as part of academia by presenting their voices and their stories and the scholarly work. And so I think that’s what I’m hoping to do with the impact is give them a place in academia by amplifying their voices through my dissertation and through my research versus a, “This is a problem. Now we’ve got to figure this out,” of like, no, I think I want to dig in a little bit more and figure out how are there ways that they’ve been able to feel like they belong and thrive and support each other within this context. So I’m really excited about it, what direction it ends up going, I don’t know. Again, like I said, it’s still my first year, so still a lot of ideas.

Erik Sorensen:
Yeah, well I absolutely love it and keep up the good work. Yeah, that’s awesome. And I love what both of you all are working on. And in some ways, some of my work maybe brings up some ideas in both of those as well. So I worked with resident assistants and looked at secondary traumatic stress and thought about as RAs are helping people, what stress are they experiencing and what trauma might they be experiencing as a result? And very similarly, I wanted to amplify the voices so people were paying attention to this is a thing, let’s look at this. There was lots and lots of research on secondary traumatic stress broadly, not much in student affairs, residents life, housing. Now there’s a lot more, it’s really growing. I don’t know that I had a lot to do with that, but I feel like I was on the cutting edge a little bit.
I was starting it when it was just starting to be talked about and now I feel like we’re talking about it a lot, which is also exciting to have some expertise there, but also to be part of the conversation, but really thinking about how do we understand this experience better? How do we help RAs best support their students they’re working with and their students too? So helping them thrive and achieve and do well. So I think very similar to my colleagues that it was about how do we tell this story and how do we make sure people know this is a problem, what do we do about it?

Crystal Lay:
And I like this piece of amplifying voices. How do we ensure that folks are thriving, not just surviving? And during difficult moments or issues that are happening, whether it be marginalized identities, COVID, these different things that are impacting the world and that’s really important. I’m excited that you all are adding to our field in that way. So we’re going to move to an opinion question. This is your opinion. Is the doctorate something to aspire to in our field? You can do student affairs or you can do housing, or is it necessary to do our work or can you do the work without it? So lots of pieces in there. Essentially, do you need a doctorate to do our work? Your opinion?

Alvin N. Mangosing:
I would say I don’t think you need it to do the work. I think that folks… We need to provide space for folks like practitioners to engage in scholarly work. I think that’s by minimum. I think we find ourselves continually just always being the practitioner. And I think what I’ve experienced and what I’m appreciative at least in this first year is that I have an excuse and a goal to do that scholarly work. Folks have a little bit more understanding of like, “Oh, you’re in a doctoral program? Cool.” But I think if folks were not to have done that or be in a program, I think sometimes folks in our field are like, “Oh, you don’t really need to prioritize that.” But I think being in a program prioritizes those scholarly practices, if that makes any sense.

Kawanna Leggett:
I think it depends on what your goals are for yourself in terms of the experiences that you want, in terms of the roles that you want to hold. I was of the camp that, “Oh, you don’t need a doctorate degree. You can get an MBA, you can get a law degree,” and I still am of that sort that you should get the degree that works for you. I would know that I wouldn’t have certain positions if I didn’t have this doctorate degree though. I would not be in the role that I am in because I was competing with people that had doctorate degrees.
And so I think you have to identify what your goal is and where you want to be in your career and understand who will you be lining yourself up to when job interviews come up. And so you’ve got to think about your career progression and what that means. But I would deeply encourage if you are not invested and if you’re not interested, just don’t do this degree because it’s too much blood, sweat, and pain to go through this for nothing. If you truly are not… your heart’s not into it.

Erik Sorensen:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. You all spoke to that beautifully. And one of my big pet peeves is when people are like, “Oh yeah, I’ll just go get my doctorate eventually,” like it’s an automatic assumed thing, and I think exactly what Kawanna was saying, there’s a cost to it, and I don’t mean to make it sound bad or dire. I encourage anyone who wants to do it for any number of reasons. If you want to engage in scholarship, if you want to get more academic experience, if you want to be a scholar, whether then you end up doing research beyond your dissertation or not, or you just want to move up into other jobs that require it or prefer it. I get all that, and those are all good reasons. It could be your own ego and pride. You want to do it, great, but you have to have a really good reason because there is a cost to it.
There’s an emotional physical cost or can be at least. There could be relationship costs. You get so invested in your topic, which I think is really cool. You really get this expertise and you read everything on your topic, you really dig in, but that really creates a more insular experience. You’re in your own head a lot of the time. If that sounds exciting to you, you probably could do really well at it. If that sounds scary, I still think you can do it. It’s still about persistence. I never want to discourage anybody, but I think Kawanna said it perfectly, you’ve got to have your reasons and those will get you through. If you don’t have that, I don’t know how you could do it. I joked about it earlier, but it is true. Quitting is always an option and for some people they choose not to finish and no criticism of those people.
I didn’t understand that until I was in a program and working on my dissertation and then I couldn’t have understood it better. I said, “I’ve got no criticism to anybody who just decides they’re done.” It’s challenging, but it can be challenging in a really rewarding way. So again, I don’t say that to discourage at all, but it is challenging in some ways, and I agree that I can’t speak for hiring agents. I think we need to be thoughtful about what other experiences are also really useful and good. I don’t want to work in a field where you have to have a PhD. I think it’s good to honor experience and knowledge in other ways too. I think it’s a little nearsighted not to. But the other idea of how do we make this meaningful and do something with our degrees that’s meaningful I think is what’s most important. So how do we apply it in ways that matter? I think it’s great to get, I don’t think everyone should feel like they have to, but if you’ve got a good reason, you should do it and I hope it helps you.

Alvin N. Mangosing:
Yeah, and I’m going to also backtrack on my response and give over also another real response. I think as a queer man of color sitting at a table with other folks, I think having that doctorate degree to be able to push my, not agenda, but to better make my point, I think I can also see that happening as well as something that’s needed. Because also in terms of representation, in terms of where we are as leaders, especially based on my identities, I think being able to have that doctoral degree, because we are in academia, will help me be seen a little bit more, heard a little bit more in those conversations.

Crystal Lay:
And that’s why I pursued mine. That’s one of the big reasons was I knew that if I was going to be checked off a list for anything, it would not be because of my education as a Black woman. And so to have students come up to me and say, “Oh my gosh, you have your doctorate,” and to see me as a potential mentor or someone they can look up to has been really powerful. Now I had that when I received my master’s degree of students from my neighborhood who were at that particular institution. “We come from the same neighborhood, wow.” And so I think that’s the other piece too, is knowing that representation and if you’re willing to take on that mantle and that sometimes it feels like a burden of I’m doing this for a community and what community I think for myself sometimes felt like a lot.
I stopped out for three years. I took a break, and then I said, “I’ve got to go back because this is important to me and I know what it means.” But yeah, I think from what I’ve heard from each of you, it’s a very individual and personal decision, and it’s also thinking about how you want to use it in your work. And it sounds like each of you have been able to do that in a way that’s really meaningful, not just to you personally, but also the students that you’re touching every day. So thank you.

Erik Sorensen:
And if I could just a quick aside, I realized I used the term nearsighted when I was talking, caught that as ableist language. My apologies for that to our audience.

Crystal Lay:
Thank you, thank you. Now if folks say, “I do not want to pursue a doctorate and I want to move up in the field,” are there other ways that you would recommend gaining some of the skills that you’ve acquired or some parallel experiences?

Kawanna Leggett:
Certainly the experience is an experience. You can’t take away from that. And so getting the jobs that will get you the next job that you’re trying to obtain is super important. Being involved, you don’t have to have a doctorate to write a paper, to write an article. And so how are you investing in the field beyond just being in the classroom? You can teach with a master’s degree. And so thinking about what are you doing to do the work in other areas so that you have a robust resume that shows that, “Yes, I don’t have a doctorate, but I’m in the classroom, I am writing articles, I’m involved in organizations?” And you’re getting certificates, you’re getting another master’s degree. And so it doesn’t have to, per se, be this doctorate, but you’re showcasing all the things that if you were to get a doctorate, you’re doing research, you’re doing scholarly work in other areas, but it may not be in this doctorate program.

Alvin N. Mangosing:
Yeah, I would agree. I think diving into a topic and writing some of those articles, presenting at conferences of what you’ve understood about that particular topic and engaging in those scholarly conversations with your peers, I think I find a lot of those similarities happening in the program I’m in now, and I’m like, “I already do this. I write about those things. I have conversations around these articles. I’m presenting to my staff.” And so continuing to just hone in on those skill sets is really what we’re doing. Because I think in a doctoral program, you’ve just got to do it for four years consistently and publish something, and that’s where you get your letters. But yeah, you can definitely engage in scholarly work in your field.

Erik Sorensen:
Yeah, I strongly agree, and I think reading a lot of research on topics of interest is important. I think you can do a lot of what we’ve done in our doctoral programs, and I think the process of being in a program provides some of the motivation and structure, so you have to provide that for yourself. But I can’t think of anything we’ve done that other people couldn’t necessarily do. I think having some guidance is always helpful. So there could also be finding good mentors who are doing research, jumping in on a research project so you could see it come to life a little bit. That dissertation process is probably the most unique element in my estimation. So that’s why.

Alvin N. Mangosing:
And who knows, you might be jumping into that and be like, “Oh, I can do this,” and find yourself applying for a doctoral program. I think that was one of the things that was framed to me. Again, you’re already writing, you’re already presenting, you’re already diving into this. You’ve just got to be able to do it for four years and have peers review your work. So yeah.

Crystal Lay:
And the community part too, you’re in a community of scholars. Each of you have said, “I’m going to do this thing for whatever reason,” and then you get to do that together. I think that’s a pretty cool feature. That’s a part of it. And you can also have your board of directors or your community of folks outside of a program that you write with and you engage with. And so I think the more we talk about what all of the opportunities are to contribute to housing and how we support our students who live on campus the better. How do we keep talking about what’s out there and how we could keep learning and growing together? So if you each could share one or two tips for those wondering how to use their degree in supporting students who live on campus, what would those be?

Kawanna Leggett:
I think I would say three things. One is talk to students. I know that’s so simple. We are doing all this research on students and how often do we actually get our degree and pull back and say, “You know what? Let’s talk to students to see if this is still relevant, what I’ve researched and how are we continuing to inform ourselves around what those experiences are for students and staff?” And so don’t just do the research, bring it back and bring that community together to continue to engage in those conversations.
My second thing is just it’s not necessarily impact that you have on students in housing, it’s just this continuing… I know once I was done, I was like, “I don’t want to read a book right now. I don’t want to see a book.” But what helped me throughout the process, I used to bring together a group of women, and we used to go to these different coffee shops and write together or do schoolwork together. And so how do you do that once you get the degree and bring up a core group of people to continue reading and writing together in community? And I haven’t done it since then. And as I’m talking through them, I need to do this now. And so I think just continuing to push your mind of learning and elevating, bringing students together, bringing your friends and colleagues together to do this conversation and community work together is important.

Erik Sorensen:
Yeah, and I found it to be really helpful to talk about my research or my topic of interest. It helps draw other people in if they’re interested in that. And that’s been exciting. And so I think, yeah, my best piece of advice I guess is do something with it, whatever that is. Is there an opportunity for training? You had all these great discussion and implications as part of your dissertation, have you done any of those things or have you worked towards any of those things? I think even just as a starter to challenge your own department or institution to make some changes that are going to be good changes.
Also, I like keeping up reading research and seeing what’s going on and then trying to apply it. It’s great to read. People worked hard on that stuff, but also there’s some great tidbits in there that we can actually change our work. And so I think taking that stuff seriously, especially once you’ve been through the research process yourself, you can appreciate differently that a lot of work went into that. And so those are a couple of things I’d offer. Staying up to date with research and finding ways to apply and make what changes, even small changes, we can for the sake of improvement of the student experience.

Alvin N. Mangosing:
Yeah, I think for me, once I’ve earned these letters, I think the thing that I’m going to do is really center my work around the scholarship piece. Very much what Kawanna said. I continue to develop this culture of scholarly and academic work. Because I think for a lot of folks, I want them to feel like they can be academics, that they can contribute to the scholarly work that we’re doing here at the institution. And so providing them that space of, “Yeah, you belong in academia, you can contribute via your stories and your experiences to academia,” and here’s maybe how we can amplify some of those maybe unheard voices in academia. So yeah, I think once I become Dr. Mangosing, just really trying to center that scholarly work with the staff that I supervise and the students that I work with.

Crystal Lay:
We’re rooting for you, future doctor, rooting for you. Well y’all, we are coming to the end of our time. If folks wanted to learn more about this topic, where should they start? Or are there resources that you would recommend?

Kawanna Leggett:
Google is your friend. Google programs that are close to you and talk to people, talk to your mentors, talk to people that you’ve just connected with at conferences. I think the more you speak it and put it out there, “Hey, I’m interested in this,” more people will gravitate to you to say, “Well, let me show you.” People want to be helpful in this journey because they know how difficult it is. So the more you speak it up and name it as a goal, you’ll find a community that is going to pour into you and get you connected with many folks. And then I would say reach out to programs as well. And not that you want to go, but they’re willing to have informational interviews with you all as well.

Alvin N. Mangosing:
Yeah, our field is so small. Reach out to someone who’s in a program, reach out to your mentors to get you connected. I think one of the things that I thought was really inspiring this last NASPA were the white paper presentations. So I can talk to recent or current doctoral students and ask them about their journey. So I thought that was really helpful.

Erik Sorensen:
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that is the best way. I think also reading dissertations can be helpful if that’s interesting to you at all. There’s a lot of books out there about how to write a dissertation. Some of those can certainly be helpful as well. But I found it most helpful just to read what are people doing? How do people write these? How are they thinking? That gave me so much more insight, so I found that to be helpful as well. And otherwise, no one ever reads our dissertation, if you don’t mind hopping in and taking a look. But I found that incredibly helpful. And that was even when I was in the program, I could see if you’re considering it and saying, “I would have to write something like this.” If you look at a lot of them, you’ll see how they’re all different. There’s a lot of different ways to do it, and you can make it your own.

Kawanna Leggett:
I love that. I just want to reiterate or what Erik said, what’s a problem that you have that just gets on your nerves and you’re like, “If I could do research on this problem, this would be so helpful.” Google that and put, I don’t know, first year services dissertation and things will come up. So I think that’s so important. I remember the first presentation that I did long ago was about entry level professionals retention. I had no clue that almost 15 years later, this will be my dissertation topic about. And so what are those things that interest you, that are problems that you can help inform the research on? And so thank you Erik. That’s such a great point.

Crystal Lay:
And Erik, you can count me as one of your downloads because I did look at yours as I was writing mine. So thank you.

Erik Sorensen:
I love it. I love it. I’m glad it was helpful.

Crystal Lay:
This was such a wonderful conversation. Lots of professional tidbits that were offered. Thank you so much Kawanna, Erik, and Alvin for joining me today. And thanks for joining us on this episode of ResEd Chat. If you have an idea of a topic or a person you’ll like us to have on the show, please let us know by reaching out to Roompact and take care.