In this episode of ResEdChat, Crystal sits down with Desmond Thomas, Meeting Logistics Coordinator for AME Church, to explore what it’s like to enter housing and residence life from another profession. Desmond reflects on what drew him to the field, the skills that carried over, and how his prior experience shaped his approach to the work.
Guest: Desmond Thomas (he/him/his) , Meeting Logistics Coordinator, AME Church
Host: Crystal Lay
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Roompact’s ResEdChat podcast is a platform to showcase people doing great work and talk about hot topics in residence life and college student housing. If you have a topic idea for an episode, let us know!
Transcript:
Crystal Lay:
Hello and welcome to Roompact’s ResEdChat podcast where we highlight cool people who do cool things in residence life and college student housing. I’m your host, Crystal Lay. I use the she/her series pronouns.
Today, we’re going to talk about folks who work in housing or who have worked in housing who did not work in housing prior. I don’t know if that made sense. However, I wanted to bring this topic to life because, in our field of housing, we have a lot of folks who have not experienced housing before and they’ve had this life prior, and then we hire them into our departments, and sometimes we train them well, we give them the backstory, the different pieces that they need to be successful in housing, and sometimes we don’t do that. And so I thought about what are some things that are crucial to share with someone who’s coming into our teams, coming into our departments, to help make sure that they understand the world of housing and the work we’re doing while also making sure that we are letting them showcase their talents and skills that they may be bringing with them, that they are bringing with them, from a field that they may have been in before.
Our field and the work we’re doing and the professionals we bring in are so diverse in what they offer, and I think this is a really cool opportunity to talk to someone who has prior experience in housing and was able to utilize those skills and really enhance and inform the work that they did, but also what they contributed to our department.
So, with that, I would love to have our guest introduce themselves.
Desmond Thomas:
Well, hello and thank you for this invitation. My name is Desmond Thomas. I am currently the meeting logistics coordinator for the African Methodist Episcopal Church, that’s just a fancy title for being over housing for the AME Church, and I am also PhD student who is trying to figure out all the things in higher ed.
Crystal Lay:
Thank you so much. And then, folks, I also had the pleasure of working with Desmond at a prior institution, and so we’re just really honored that you to make time to do this. Okay. So before working in housing, you had a full professional career, if I remember correctly, and so I’m wondering what drew you into residential life at the time and then what surprised you the most as you entered into housing.
Desmond Thomas:
Yeah, I was a full-time youth pastor. I was a full-time student. I was a full-time musician at the church that I was serving in. Really, what drew me into housing was the fact that I was trying to figure out what my next step was going to be. As I was thinking about moving from youth ministry into life things, I was just trying to think it through. I’m a faith person, so I was praying it through. Really, an opportunity came up as a grad position as a resident chaplain at Baylor University, and I applied for the job. It’s super competitive, so, to be honest, I didn’t think I was going to get it because lots of people apply for this role because of all the cool things that you can do in it. But I applied, and it seems like a good fit for me in the moment as I was thinking about the transition from youth ministry into whatever else was next.
And when I got into housing, it totally changed my life. Now, I knew higher ed was a thing because there are colleges everywhere. I just didn’t know the specifics of it, and I didn’t know the student affair side, and I got into it and really loved it and really began to see the ways in which higher education just works.
Crystal Lay:
Okay. Thank you for that. You mentioned the previous career pieces. I’m wondering what are the skills that you feel translated most naturally into the housing role. And then were there any that you didn’t expect to be as valuable as they were?
Desmond Thomas:
Yeah. As I mentioned, I was a youth pastor. Some of the things that you do as a youth pastor is you learn how to communicate with a variety of people, you learn how to be creative, you learn how to pivot and pivot fast and be flexible even in the pivot because you might have to pivot after you pivot after you’ve already pivoted, but I think all of those things were things that really helped me in housing. I think another part of that was my social work background. While I was doing the resident chaplaincy job, I also was a student learning how to communicate with people. And I think all of those skills really were skills that translated naturally into the campus living world, primarily because you deal with students. I had the opportunity to deal with freshmen, 300 female-identifying persons and then 100 males, and so that was interesting. That dynamic was interesting. You learn how to navigate. So I think those skills naturally just fit into the role.
I think one of the things too is being able to know how to place those things and who to place those things with and where to place those things. I think when we talk about communication, one of the things that I really thought about was I often, in conversation, asked persons, “What perspective do you want me to give you? Do you want me to wear my social worker hat? Do you want me to wear my youth pastor experience hat? Do you want me to just be a listener in this moment?” So it’s just a matter of learning how to place those skills, who needed to benefit from those skills, and of course when to do that.
Crystal Lay:
Yes, I hear the being flexible and pivoting, and I was like, “Yes, we have to do that.” And then you also talked about wearing many different hats. I think what’s fascinating about housing is there’s so many resources, and we’re supposed to be referral agents, and it sounds like the role you had, because of the type of institution and also the prior training, you had to think about, “Okay, what does this human need in the moment? But then also, based on where I’m at, what am I supposed to do based on the role I have?” So it sounds like there was a little bit of juggling you had to do in there. Now, I’m curious, Desmond, so when you were working in housing, what did that role teach you that you didn’t expect to learn?
Desmond Thomas:
Yeah. I think one of the things that I learned… I’ll talk a little bit about my resident chaplaincy role. So as a resident chaplain, you really sit with students in crisis. That’s the main thing, so I learned a lot of crisis management. I broadened that when I had an experience… COVID hit, and I was trying to figure out after grad school like, “What am I going to do?” My hall director at the time said, “Have you ever considered being a hall director?” and at the moment, I did not, but it sparked something in me. And then I began to apply for jobs, and of course then we got to COVID, and schools were trying to figure out all the things, and the job search was difficult, but I was able to get a position later that year. I think in that position, it really taught me to know my limits.
There’s an old thing, “You got to know when to hold them. You got to know when to fold them,” but it really was this idea of knowing my own limits. The first experience that I had in housing was super formative for me because I wasn’t a traditional student, and so I didn’t live on campus and have the campus experience. So when I was a grad assistant or a resident chaplain working in housing, I was really able to lean into having a kind of a traditional experience. Then going from a grad student to the professional side, that was different, and it felt more real. But it really was knowing my limits, knowing how to have balance, trusting the process, but not just trusting the process and learning how to navigate crisis management, but also how to lead leaders, student leaders, and then how to work alongside colleagues that were doing the same work, but also were trying to figure out different things.
So I think one of… knowing limits, having balance, learning how to trust the process and trust that when you give work to others, that they’re going to do that too, those were lessons that I had previously from my other jobs, youth pastor and musician and all of those things, but it was different in the housing world for me.
Crystal Lay:
Earlier, I said or maybe I made an assumption that changing of the hats felt easy, but hearing you answer this question just now, how do you compartmentalize, “Okay, in this job, I am not a chaplain. I am not a social worker. I work for this department.” That leads me into this question about… I don’t want to assume that that felt difficult, but I’m wondering, are there pieces that, again, felt like, “This feels really, really easy as someone who had a career prior and transitioned into housing,” versus, “This felt a little difficult or different because I wasn’t raised in housing. That’s not my background, but now I’m in this setting”? Were there like, this feels really easy, and then this feels a little difficult?
Desmond Thomas:
I think there were moments and times when it did feel that way. There were some natural things. I feel like I’m gifted to lead leaders. I feel like that’s just something that intrinsically is inside of me, and I attribute that to how I was raised as a leader. From that perspective, it was easy, but I think there were some nuances. I think things that I didn’t consider was demographics and socio-cultural factors.
Coming from an institution that was a private institution and had a different dynamic and then going to another institution that had a different dynamic than the previous institution, I had to learn how to juggle those, and that became difficult because there are just nuances, and it wasn’t anything that was bad about either experience. It just caused me to have to think differently. And because I only maybe had the one experience, then I had to think more strategically in how to engage with students, how to engage with staff, things that I could do at one institution I couldn’t do at another institution. So I had to figure out what worked where I was and then, again, pivot when you have to pivot.
Crystal Lay:
I’m hearing it’s not just we should be cognizant of different functional area or industry pieces, but also between institutions. Right? There should be some awareness that it could be different as we’re onboarding folks or bringing them in between institutions or, again, different industries. Did you feel welcomed and prepared when you entered housing to start and then also that transition between? And then what do you think departments can do better to onboard and support professionals who don’t have a traditional housing pipeline?
Desmond Thomas:
Yeah, I think I was prepared. I think, again, when I came into housing, I didn’t have a real knowledge of housing on campus, like I mentioned, because I was not a traditional student. When I did my undergrad, I was already working full-time and going to school at night, or in the evenings rather. So when I got into housing and was able to have more of a traditional college experience, even though I was working in a professional role, I think there was so much excitement. There was so much excitement about housing and the things that you get to do. And so I think, for me, I was living in the best of both worlds as a student and as a professional, and, again, it allowed me to lean into some of those community connection belonging things that housing most often focuses on. It was a good experience for me.
I think that prepared me to enter into housing. There were aspects of the professional role as a resident chaplain that I did not have to worry about. So I didn’t supervise as a resident chaplain. I had a small budget, so programming was also limited, so I didn’t have to think about programming. There was some investment in student staff, but it looked different. When I got over to the professional role, I had those things, but it was more in-depth, and I had to figure out, “How do I do these things, be productive?” I’m not just having one-on-ones to talk about how you’re navigating your role and how life is, but now I’m having to supervise staff and make sure I’m asking about residents and how they are navigating. So it’s just different things that I had some preparation for, but also learning on the job.
I think it’s always important for institutions to think about how you match up of gift things, talents, abilities with what you need. I also think that I was fortunate to be at two institutions that really were intentional about that, intentional about seeing and hearing what I wanted to bring into the role and then seeing what they were in need of and then matching that. I don’t know that that is always the ability… other institutions do that, but I think that is super important because I think it minimizes burnout. From my experience, that is something that could happen pretty quickly when you’re giving a bunch and there’s just a mixed match, or a mismatch rather.
Crystal Lay:
I’m hearing institutions being open to leaning into what you’re offering in addition to making sure you feel prepared for the work you’re doing, so that matching of talents. I really like that phrasing. And I also heard what does supervision… could training involve how to be a supervisor, how to plan programs, whether it’s small scale or large scale. And then also budgeting, I heard that piece too. And I think also the complexity of the supervision piece as it gets into the one-on-one and the accountability, how do you hold them accountable and how do you make sure they’re set up for success, and particularly with student leaders who this might not be their career path. This may or may not be your career path. And so in the time you have with them, what are you responsible for to make sure that they are meeting the needs of folks who may be one or two years within their same age range? I heard a lot of cool, tangible pieces that can be helpful as folks think about what does preparation look like for someone who is transitioning into housing.
So, I want to talk about… let’s see, leadership-
Desmond Thomas:
So if I… Go ahead.
Crystal Lay:
No, keep going. Nope, you’re good. Let’s do this. You’re the guest. Let’s do it.
Desmond Thomas:
No… I want to talk a little bit about… and maybe you were getting ready to go there because you said leadership. I think for me too, I really had to learn… Shout out to my student staff because they taught me a lot. I really had to learn how to supervise. You mentioned supervision and what supervision looks like, and I had an idea. Again, I supervised adults. As a youth pastor, I had a team, I knew how to supervise adults. I was a little bit removed from what it looked like to supervise sophomores in college or juniors. I also had a lot of professional experience, a career before, as we mentioned.
Until coming into housing, my thoughts and my perspective was a little bit different, and I had to really revert and think and reframe the ways that I was showing up with student staff because I maybe had a very high expectation in some areas where they were just not ready to explore that or had not had the experiences to really get them to the place where they were thinking at a different level, and so I really had to think about that. It made me really go back to some of the social work books that I was reading and really understanding like, “This is theory.”
And this is the other thing, because I did not have a student affair background or a housing background, I didn’t study student development theory. As a doc student now, I have that, and I can see how that correlates to just housing and other student affairs across campus, but I really did not have that understanding. It was different… Because I had the social work background, so I was able to look at theories and look at modalities and things like that, therapeutic frameworks, and be able to approach it from that perspective.
I think that’s one of the things you have to adapt to. Yo adapt to learning your student staff and just learning the needs of your residents as well. I think it was easier for me to be able to engage with students than maybe my student staff, because students, it was intentional, but it could be transactional too. Whereas student staff, you’re with them a majority of the time, so I had to learn how to navigate that aspect. So, yeah.
Crystal Lay:
I’m glad you stopped me because I was getting a little tongue-tied because I was processing what you were sharing, and I was going into this piece about like, “What could leadership do?” and you talked about… If someone doesn’t have a student affairs background, and it’s more common and more… That’s why we’re having this conversation, right, it’s more likely that someone may not have that. I don’t have the stats on that, but how can leadership think about who’s in the field, who’s in the department to make sure that if there are fundamental things about our work in housing and/or just in our department, how do we make sure that folks feel prepared? How are we looking at and talking about transferable skills? We can’t just leave that on the new person to the team.
There has to be some responsibility on leadership to really make sure that we’re ready to receive and support folks, and not that we have to put training wheels on, but it’s like, “What do we know, and how do we make sure that we’re ready and setting you up for success in this role?” I’m just really fascinated by this, and my wheels are turning.
Do you have any comments you want to add about ways that maybe leadership could tap more into, what I just shared, or any thoughts on how leadership could be more supportive?
Desmond Thomas:
Yeah, and I think it goes back to the statement I said earlier about you finding gifts, talents, and abilities and matching that. I think it takes a great deal of intentionality, and I think that intentionality creates benefits for both the department, the staff member, and then the staff that that staff member will lead. It’s more than… Well, I’ll go back to my experience. I feel like one of the things I said even in interviews is I’m a leader of leaders. That’s what makes me unique is that I can lead leaders. I think that was capitalized on, and I think I was put in the right places to be able to do that I think where…
And this is a good thing because, again, it was an opportunity of growth for me to be able to take a step back and say, “These are the areas or these are the things that I have and I bring to the table, but here are the things that I can learn.” I think, again, it was a struggle for me in having to figure out the balance, but I think, again, it really just goes back to those gifts, abilities, and talents. I know that there have been times where my colleagues maybe didn’t feel like they were matched in that same way, and I think it can become a point of tension and frustration.
Housing, in my opinion, is like youth ministry. It is complex. It’s the most complex. I mean, other departments, other campus partners would say, “No, student conduct is more complex,” or, “This is more complex.” Right? But I think because there’s so many different nuances in housing and you’re navigating so many different things that it just becomes very, very complex, so it’s easy to get worn down really easily. And so when it’s a mixed match, then I think it just perpetuates it. But yeah, those are my thoughts.
Crystal Lay:
I love it. I love it. You have transitioned out of housing, right? What stayed with you, Desmond? I would say, what has stayed with you? And then also what are some transferable strengths, that’s what I’ll call them, that you’ve carried forward into maybe your doc work or even your role as a pastor in the work that you’re doing now?
Desmond Thomas:
Yeah, I think some of the things that really have translated over and I’ve been able to carry with me is, again, knowing my abilities, knowing what I bring to the table, but then also being able to sit at the table as the learner. I think that’s important for me, and I’ve seen that in practice more now than even I did when I was working in housing. Another thing would be is having a deeper awareness of others too. As I mentioned, I learned a ton from my student staff and even with my students, just being able to be more intentional, and I think one of the things that I tried to do while I was in housing was be super intentional. I know we talk about you learn the name, you learn something, a fact about them, and you have those conversations, but I think there’s just a depth that matters.
I think one of the things that I’m learning even in the doc work is really seeing the importance of… We talk about belonging, but what does belonging really mean, and what is it connected to? And so, for me, it has prompted me to think more about connection. Connection is the bridge that gets you to belonging, and belonging gets you to well-being, and well-being gets you to thriving, and thriving gets you to flourishing. These are things that matter when we talk about student success overall, and those things in housing are super formative to how we get students to the end of their college experience.
But I think all of those things have made me think more about how systems work, especially in higher education. I think the housing experience gave me that broad stroke because, again, like I said, it’s so complex and you see so many different things that it just highlights the ways in which I think institutions are doing great jobs, but also in ways in which I think we have opportunities to grow.
Crystal Lay:
Okay. So if you were advising someone entering housing, they watch this, they hear this, they’re like, “Oh, I’m going to ask Desmond for some advice because I want to go into housing,” what would you tell them to lean into, and then what should they prepare themselves for?
Desmond Thomas:
I think what they should lean into is definitely what they bring to the table. I think, a lot of times, it has been… As we navigate through diversity, equity, inclusion, all those things higher institutions are thinking through, I think it’s important to be able to bring your full self into the space. I think it’s beyond just you as a person, but all of you. I bring to the table not just the fact that I’m a Black male, but I bring to the table that I’m a minister, that I’m a scholar, that I’m a practitioner, I bring to the table that I’m a social worker, I bring to the table that I’m relational and that I’m intentional, I bring to the table that I’m welcoming, that I’m affirming, all of the things that make up who I am. And when there are discussions on the table, I’m going to bring all of that too, so you can expect for me to bring that and don’t shy away from that.
And I think you have to learn how to navigate spaces and be strategic, but bring your full authentic self. We say that a lot, but I don’t know that that’s something that we always mean when we say, “Bring your authentic self.” And I’m not saying be argumentative and be defensive and all those things. I think you can be a strong advocate as you come into the space.
The thing I would say persons should prepare themselves for would be that flexibility. Again, I think being in this doc program that I’m in, I begin to just think about words. We say a lot of words. I think there’s a lot of good intention behind the words, but I don’t know that there’s a lot of invitation with the words. Again, flexibility means a ton of things. But with flexibility, you have to know yourself, and knowing yourself means that you could enter and engage in something, and you don’t have to necessarily agree with it, but you need to engage with it and you figure out the strengths from it and you figure out how to grow from it.
I’m using broad terms again, but I think these are things that you think about in your certain context, and that’s why I’m using broad words, because you think about, “How do I need to be flexible where I am? How does this look for me when I get into housing?” You play back, and you listen to Desmond saying, “You got to be flexible.” You apply it, you overlay it to your current context, and you find the ways in which you need to be flexible and the ways in which you learn, because there’s always something to be learned.
I mean, I learned that from even experiences. I remember something that you said to me along the lines of, “Desmond, remember that, again, you don’t have to agree, but how do you work within the system?” It is not asking you to minimize who you are, but it is inviting you to work within the system, and it is inviting you to think more intentionally about how you respond because your respond matters. How do we work with our campus partners, still disagree, but work with our campus partners to come to a better understanding? Those would be the things.
Crystal Lay:
You can’t be giving away my secrets, Desmond. No, but you’re right. I like to think about this, how do you flip tables strategically? I think your advice is perfect and on point, and it’s that flexibility within the context. I think it’s, like you said, “How can I be my authentic self, and how do I evaluate a place and know if myself is welcomed?” And so I would imagine and hope that folks listening or folks who are leaders of departments or are thinking about onboarding and recruitment, it’s, “Do I have a place that allows folks to show up and be their full selves?” I get chills just thinking about that. Are we designing places? Are we providing places where folks can’t show up and be their full selves? Right?
Desmond Thomas:
Yeah.
Crystal Lay:
And I think we have a lot of work to do. There’s still some work to do, and how do we talk about that? That was really powerful. My last question for you, as folks are thinking about the things that you’ve shared, whether it be being flexible, figuring out your full self, navigating multiple hats, I think also transitioning in and out of career paths or even finding your path or getting your doctorate, all these things you’ve shared today, if they wanted to learn a little bit more or look to a resource or something to help guide them, do you have anything that you would offer up, like resources or books or things that have helped you as you’ve navigated your journey?
Desmond Thomas:
Yeah, I think one of the things that I enjoy doing is listening to podcasts. The ASHE podcast is amazing. They’ve highlighted some of the things I’ve talked about today, but they just shed light on the experience of higher ed as a whole. I think they’ve looked at or been able to highlight some of the main issues that are in higher ed and how people are navigating through them. They’ve given some good opportunities to some guests, and I think that it’s good.
I think higher ed… I’m sorry, I’m blanking on the exact… Chronicle of Higher Ed is a source that I read as well just to stay abreast on what is happening in higher ed. And it’s not always specific to housing, but I think looking at the broad aspect of higher ed as a whole just helps you to think too about how you’re showing up in the spaces. And then you’re thinking about how policies and current events are impacting students that live on campus.
So those would be the two things.
Crystal Lay:
Well, I will definitely get those added to the show notes. Thank you so very much. I have really enjoyed listening to your perspective, and I know it’s going to inform my thoughts and work as we move forward and get ready for our next onboarding season for team members, starting with my team, and so thank you. I feel inspired and encouraged and definitely will be thinking a lot more about what you’ve shared. So thank you for hanging out with me. All right.
Desmond Thomas:
Thank you for having me.
Crystal Lay:
Yes, okay.
I really want to thank everyone else for hanging out with us today too. If you have an idea for a story or there’s a person that you would like us to connect with, let us know at RoomPact, and we will reach out. We’ll get what Desmond shared to the show notes so you can also gain some wisdom and insight as well. And I want to thank all of you all for tuning in today. Take care.
