In this episode of the podcast, guest host Dustin Ramsdell chats with Ashley Unmacht, a current Roompact blogger from the University of Wisconsin-Madison about her path growing into a mid-level role early in her career. She shares advice for others as they navigate job related transitions as well as the unique dynamics of supervising students and colleagues when you move up as a young professional.
Guest: Ashley Unmacht (she/her/hers) – Assistant Director of Residence Life at University of Wisconsin-Madison
Host: Dustin Ramsdell – Independent Higher EdTech Content Creator
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Show Notes:
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Roompact’s ResEdChat podcast is a platform to showcase people doing great work and talk about hot topics in residence life and college student housing. If you have a topic idea for an episode, let us know!
Transcript:
Dustin Ramsdell:
Welcome back everyone to Roompact’s ResEdChat podcast. If you’re new to the show, every episode our team of hosts brings you timely discussions on a variety of topics of interest to hired professionals who work in and with university housing, residence life, residential education, et cetera. So, this is another in our annual series highlighting our wonderful team of bloggers that are joining Roompact for the year to bring a diversity of content to our blog, and it’s just great to have some get to know you episodes here on the podcast, and help to give a little bit more of a deeper, warmer dive into the topics that they are exploring in their blog posts. So, Ashley, if you want to kick us off and briefly introduce yourself and your professional background, which is what I feel like we’ll be kind of farming from for this episode, and the topic of moving into mid-level positions and everything, but then yeah, just introduce yourself and we’ll go from there.
Ashley Unmacht:
Awesome. Thanks for having me. I’m Ashley Unmacht, she/her pronouns, I’m currently an assistant director of residence life at the University of Wisconsin Madison, I’ve done that for the last two years, but just like most people, I started off as an RA. I went to the University of Wisconsin Whitewater, and got really involved, decided I wanted do higher ed, and went to the University of Kansas, studied higher ed, women, gender and sexuality studies, which was cool, and was an assistant hall director there. And then, it kind of kicked off my professional career post-grad at the University of Arizona, where I was for a while before coming to my current role as an assistant director. So, right now my position is very, I would say, classic mid-level, so I supervise full-time hall directors, I have a collateral area, I do our breaks and transitions for residence life here. And yeah, a good amount of my experience has been at larger schools, which I’ve come to enjoy, it’s definitely its own beast, but yeah, that’s a little bit about me.
Dustin Ramsdell:
Yeah, yeah. And I think your experience moving up will be what we explored today a little bit because I think it’s just always nice to have episodes where I feel like we kind of zoom in on career transitions, how people have navigated things, figured out the right type of position at the right type of institution, for you just knowing, I like the big public institutions, and it’s like, yeah, they come with a lot of unique aspects to it, certainly compared to other institution types. So, it’s like, if you can start to better know those things, and when you feel like you’re ready for something new, whether it’s moving up or over, what have you, yeah, we’ve had many episodes over the past couple of years on different aspects of career transitions and stuff. So, I appreciate you joining to explore a little bit of that from your own story and everything, but before we get to all that, at this juncture in your career journey, you are part of the Roompact blogging team, what inspired you to want to join the team?
Ashley Unmacht:
It’s been a few months, and I’ve really enjoyed it so far. I feel like I… So, I work at a Roompact school right now, and I was reading blog posts, and my whole life I’ve liked to write, I read a lot too, and I also really enjoy any sort of expression and creativity at work. I love an activity, I love a presentation, I love a talk or something like that, so to me, this is another way to express and be creative. It’s definitely a different kind of medium, it’s much more controlled than just getting up in front of people and giving a talk or something like that. So, it’s something I wanted to challenge myself in, I think.
And I’ve been focusing on so far a lot of supervision based topics, so about the myths of being a chill supervisor, and boundaries related especially to student staff, and I think that working with Roompact and being a blogger has been a good way, I feel like, to put my ideas together in a way that hopefully people enjoy reading, it’s a lot of my opinions and experiences which aren’t always the best in a presentation. So, I think this is a fun way to get those out there and share about my experiences, and share my expertise, and doing it in a fun kind of creative way.
Dustin Ramsdell:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s the way that I came up in blogging and did some other more formal things in the years after that, but I think having a platform and an avenue to sort of like, this is what I’m thinking about, I’m trying to connect the dots and pull together in a coherent sort of package and stuff, helps to process, and then helps to put yourself out there, distinguish yourself, how you’re approaching things, the way that you think about your strategy around supervision, all that. So, yeah, it’s good stuff, and I think so much, especially with our topic for this episode today around navigating career transitions, and this being sort of like, okay, you’re moving into a mid-level position, and preparing for that, the changes to expect and all that, I think it’s just always really powerful to have folks speaking from their own experience.
Because I think certainly there’s going to be broad strokes, things that are maybe more universally true, but there’s also going to be a lot of things that are very unique, and having as many people speak to the anecdotes of their journeys and stuff, I think is really powerful and helpful. So, we’ll I think spend some time with this question a little bit, so I’ll just start with a very broad question, but what are some reflections on your journey into a mid-level position?
Ashley Unmacht:
So, I’ll start with, I’ve been on the fast track, I feel like, since I’ve been in college, I graduated in three years, and was just trying to save money and be really efficient. And so, I was an assistant hall director when I was 21, and was starting full-time in my RAs that I supervise, who were the same age as me or older sometimes even, so that was, I feel like, definitely going to be the seed of how my career has progressed so far. And it’s interesting to look back because I only spent a few years being a hall director post-grad, and decided that it was time for me to move up, and I think there were a few reasons why. There weren’t people that I saw that were my age moving up, I’m definitely the first of my friends and peers and things like that.
But I started to think like my supervisor, I was anticipating a lot of needs, and I was like, okay, I feel like I’ve got this. And I knew a lot of times the avenues that I’d have to go if I presented my supervisor with a question or something like that, and I started to feel like I was maxing out on what I could give, and what I was getting to out of my experience, all the difficult stuff was a lot less difficult. And honestly, the challenges of living on started to build up too, this is all happening, and it’s like, of course this is when fire alarms really were happening every night, and it was bleeding into my personal life a little bit too. And I was like, you know what? I think I’m going to start looking. So, I feel like, that was only two years ago, but I’ve definitely learned a lot since. I think my biggest thing I’ve learned about is, and thought about, is what it means to be a peer.
I feel like this is not something I had to think about as a hall director, but I feel like now I definitely have a distinction in my mind between generational peers and my positional peers. So, for example, my generational peers are the people who are my age, the people that I’ve met before this, the friends that I’ve grown up with and things like that, and who were born around the same year as I was, but my positional peers for the most part are not. And I feel like I’ve had to think a lot about that, and with that, my friends who are working residence life and not right now don’t always relate to the things I’m sharing about work, and I’ve had to navigate that because I hadn’t before. They’re here to offer a listening ear, but can’t relate, can’t offer advice.
And then, on the other hand, the people that I need to go to for those things, like my positional peers at work and across the country even, are not in the same life phase as me, which is totally fine, but I’ve had to learn how to have conversations about people’s kids, and their careers that have lasted a long time, and that they have a lot of knowledge on. And I think that is something that I wasn’t expecting out of my experience.
Dustin Ramsdell:
Yeah, I appreciate you going through the whole journey there because I think a couple of things that sort resonate with me, one, I guess just the acknowledgement, there are pros and cons of being the youngest, or the first, or whatever, and going that path. But I think with all of that, I think, to your credit, I think it’s that idea that you were recognizing an intuitiveness of what you were doing, and maybe seeking out a new challenge and all that. Because I think… I’ll not really put a qualifier on this, but I think people can get to a certain position, and if it’s sort of just not a challenge, maybe the negative part of it is that if they sort of check out or whatever, and they think it’s early retirement, whatever. But I think just always trying to calibrate the challenge of a position with what you can learn and gain from it, but then if it starts to [inaudible 00:10:11], and it’s sort of like, oh, I feel like I’m kind sleepwalking, it’s not really engaging me that much, it’s not as novel or new anymore and all that.
Because I think the part of it, I think just knowing, certainly with res life and the folks who commit to this work, there is I think an expected sort of churn and movement, whatever… Because it’s like, yeah, you’re not supposed to be a residence hall director for 15 years or something. One, it’s just like it’s a tough job, but also there’s a value instead of still being very close to the students since you literally are very often student-facing and stuff. It’s just an idea of, well, you should be at this point ready for whatever is next, whether it is moving up into a middle position in residence life, or some other functional area, or whatever else.
So, I think I guess to your credit, recognizing that you could challenge yourself and grow, and be of service still in some way, even where it’s like, you’ve done the job of being an RA, working in the halls and everything, and then supporting those folks that are doing that work, but not overstaying your welcome, maybe. Wherever it wasn’t like, certainly wasn’t giving you as much as it could have or should have, and then it’s like, okay, well, if I’m moving on, somebody else can take on that opportunity and get a lot from that, get a lot more than I was.
Because I think some of this could be happenstance or right place, right time. But what was your mindset, I guess, with going at this with an intentionality, a plan, a roadmap, or how is that in the mix here? Because I guess it’s that idea of, you have to be doing that self-awareness internal work, but then you do need to be like, well, how am I going to get to whatever is next? Did you know, oh, I absolutely want to be doing the type of position you are now, or just was sort of… I don’t know. I’m processing out loud here, but I guess just if you can speak to the way that you were intentionally creating the roadmap that you were trying to follow in this sort of journey.
Ashley Unmacht:
Definitely. I think, well, my first blog post was called Res Life for Life, and how essentially that’s not my mindset. I don’t know my end game, I feel like there was a time as a student I was really passionate and excited, I’m like, yeah, I’m going to make all these changes at the university, and then working 40 hours a week is like, huh, what do I want to be doing with my time? I feel like started to think about that a little bit more. So, I feel like I knew then, and I know now that I don’t know my end game right now, that I don’t have it all planned and figured out, but I can figure out what feels good next and what’s serving me.
I did think though a lot about my readiness and was talking to people in mid-level positions and things like that, and I think something that I still think about is what do I have to offer, not only what have I done to prepare, but what makes me a valuable member of a leadership team that adds something different, but also is a valid and real member of the team that can be there to represent the group. So, I feel like that included my supervision, communication, thinking about my passions and my talents, and just how am I different, but still able to represent a team, and I think for me, it also looked like thinking… I think a lot of people focus on their resume, and that’s important, years of experience, and experiences you’re bringing, but I think my mindset was also beyond my resume.
Am I ready to deliver lots of decisions that I might disagree with, as my own? And am I softening the truth to be liked? How important is it to me to be liked? Am I ready to become the department, so to speak, and be the face of what’s happening? I think those are some bread and butter pieces of being a mid-level manager, and yeah, I am really glad that I consider those things, and it’s something I still think about now, how am I adding value to this space and what makes me a good fit for this?
Dustin Ramsdell:
Yeah, I think that’s probably… And it kind of sets up my next question, so I’ll do a little bit of a weave here of that idea of certainly checking in with yourself and doing that self-examination to figure out, again, you don’t need to have this sort of broader ten-year plan or whatever, but just knowing I think that I can grow more, I’m sort of reaching the bounds of this, I need something new, and I feel ready for that, and whatever else, making sure all that is aligned, and then, yeah, try to seek out the, coming across to me of, asking those questions of what are the blind spots that I’m not thinking of? That idea of, well, you’re going to have to be the pace of the department, you might have to do this or that, and then you sort of be like, hmm, okay, I don’t want to do any of that.
So, that’s how, more so to the intentionality thing, of like, okay, I’m going to contour this a little bit, I’m going to do a little tinkering as to, I do feel like I’m ready, but maybe not for that, not for that… And that’s just been my whole thing is I think it does take you doing a little bit of getting meta about yourself, your career, and all that at certain crossroad moments, because I think you need to figure out the whole thing of working in a big public institution, it’s like, okay, how large do you want your team? Do you want to be more individual contributor, or managing people, or do you want to be the director, the decision maker? You’re the one driving and creating the strategy or whatever, those sort of things, and that can at least help you figure out what the next thing is.
And then, being in those positions where it feels like, wow, this is challenging in a good way, you’re going to be learning and growing, and that serves you to get to the next thing, and it is just sort of like those, if you can have the privilege, the opportunity to do that checking in. So, I think, yeah, the segue to the next question is, you were doing a lot of information gathering, anticipating your next step and everything, was there anything that you wish you knew more or wish you knew at all before moving… Or was there something that you overlooked, or was there something that you did do some exploration on but that you wish you knew more about before moving up into your current position?
Ashley Unmacht:
Well, on a very concrete, tangible level, I wish I knew just how good living off would be for me. I feel like during the time I was living on, I did try to enjoy it, and I knew it wasn’t going to last forever, but I think towards the end, I was really ready to get off, and I was in a space where I was like, well, am I going to regret this, not having to pay rent is so nice? But I think now I wish I would’ve known how easy that was going to be for me. I sleep better, it just works better for me, personally. I think, yeah, there were some growing pains with having to commute, and actually pack my lunch, and not just go home, but it’s nice not being stopped in the parking lot when I’m bringing in groceries and being asked about work, and those types of things.
So, I think that’s something I wish I knew, I don’t know, that felt like a big barrier in my head, but I figured it out. And I think on a more broad level though, I would say I wish I knew just that it was going to take time. If you’re anything like me when you start, you want to hit the ground running, you have these ideas and you’re so excited, but when you start at a place, there’s just a lot of sharing, and a lot of listening, and a lot of trying to figure out where you fit, and it’s going to take time. You’re going to have to talk about it with people, you’re going to have to talk about your supervision style, and talk about your approach, but you also have to be about it, and that takes time to prove. You have to show that… It was going to take time for me to show that I was going to follow through, and meet deadlines, and that I liked difficult conversations, and that I’m here to support my team, and things like that.
I think that time matters, and that it just takes moments of people noticing how you handle tension, and how you celebrate them, and just how you show up in meetings and where you sit, and who you talk with, that becomes who you are and what people know you for, you can’t just come in and be great, it doesn’t work like that. So, I think that’s something that I wish I had a little more time to sit with just because the imposter syndrome creeps up right away, and you want people to know what they can count on you for, and unfortunately you can’t just wave a magic wand for that. So, yeah.
Dustin Ramsdell:
Yeah, those are interesting points. I think, yeah, the living off is a big paradigm shift, and I don’t know if you could ever really fully prepare for that necessarily. And then, I think, yeah, that idea, I guess, of the way that you show up in a position like this is different than others, similar in the sense of, I think, just when you live in the halls, you are in a fishbowl in a sense that people ask you questions in the parking lot, where it’s like, I’m not technically working, but yes, I’ll answer your question. So, I think you can build upon the foundation that you might have doing that, and then adapting it to that idea of following through on what you say you’re about, and all that, like you’re saying.
So, yeah, and that’s even just generally good advice for everybody, is that… In my mind, it’s that idea of it all counts, it all matters, and all the details and all that sort of stuff. But so as we wrap up, I think you’ve shared a lot of great anecdotes and things from your experience, if you want to tie it all together, certainly there’s always an opportunity if there are specific resources or things that you’d want to highlight, but just final thoughts, advice that you’d want folks to consider before they make a similar move as we wrap up this episode?
Ashley Unmacht:
I think I do have a few. I think the first would be self-esteem is definitely essential, when you’re in a mid-level role, you got to handle a lot of feedback, and people who disagree, and criticism, and you have to know your worth outside of that, and that that’s just going to be part of the process, it’s not going to be perfect. And I think with that too, if anyone’s thinking about moving up, I would definitely suggest really think about your relationship with your current peers, I think it’s… When you’re a hall director, you’re usually less involved with each other’s work and things like that, you work together in different ways, but if someone you work with doesn’t have the same style as you, usually doesn’t mega impact how you show up. But I think I’ve learned I have to figure out how I can challenge my peers and trust them, and I hope that they can do the same for me, it’s challenging and trusting constantly.
It’s a lot more of a collaborative environment that I didn’t expect. And so, I think that’s something I would emphasize and work on, for sure. And then, maybe another piece is ask yourself, is this something you really want? I think there are messages that tell us that we should move up, that might be comparing yourself to others, of this is what housing professionals do, this is what you do when you want to continue on… Or especially for people with majority identities, we live in this culture of dominance, and capitalism, and power, that teach us that we’re supposed to want more, and we should want more power and things like that, when in reality that might be driving your decision more than this might actually be a good fit. So, I think the questions I would ask is what parts of the mid-level role would work for you? There’s less student interaction, for sure. Full-time professionals are different than student staff, usually they have more experience and more supervisors in the past that had driven their work, and I think too, that involves working with people with very different styles.
You can’t coach the same way, obviously you can help course correcting things like that, but sometimes you’re going to have style… The way you do emails or do meetings might be different from someone you supervise, and that doesn’t mean that they’re wrong in that. So, how do you figure out how to work with that and still develop them in a way that you’re not familiar with? And I think thinking about all of the, if you work in an institution with a leadership team, thinking about all the things that you don’t like about them, or you don’t like about the things that you see, and now knowing that you are going to be in a position where you might have to represent that, and represent ideas that you might disagree with and things like that. Because I think it’s not that it’s ever going to be easy, it’s not the easiest thing in the world, but also going to be an integral part of moving up, and you get less… The wins are more like, the professional staff member I supervise just did a great presentation to the department, that’s amazing, I’m happy for them.
It’s not like 200 people showed up for karaoke, I’m so happy. Which is fun too, but there’s just less of that. And so, it just looks different, and I think you have to figure out what fulfillment means and how a mid-level role might fit into your life, and your career for yourself, and making sure it’s about you and not just the people around you who’ve been telling you things about what it means to be mid-level. So, yeah.
Dustin Ramsdell:
Yeah. I think it’s a really good takeaway to… One piece of what you’re mentioning, resist the pressure or the presumption that the only way forward is up, and managing people, and doing whatever, and especially going that route before you feel earnestly ready and prepared. Because I think what I’ve been thankful for is just recognizing that there can be a lot of ways to be a very positive, impactful, individual contributor, you can just be sort of like, yeah, this role, I don’t directly supervise anybody, whatever, but I’m doing critical work for maybe the operations of things or whatever else, and I think, yeah, that idea of just… So, much of, I think, our conversation is centering on sort of the self-awareness work that you’re doing, you’re exploring within yourself, where are you, what are you looking for, how can you get it, and how can you best prepare yourself to make transitions like this, and be successful in them.
So, I think it’s a lot of great stuff for folks to think about, they should definitely, obviously go read all of your blogs that you’ve done, and we certainly appreciate you for all that you have written, and for taking time out to hang out for this podcast episode, and we’ll have ways to have folks connect with you as well, keep the conversation going. But just thanks so much for hanging out.
Ashley Unmacht:
Thanks so much for having me, I appreciate it.
